14 Jan 2008 14:32:11
lp
woman loses life in surf

from sfgate:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/14/MNJQUF160.DTL

rip for the young woman and a word of advise (okay preaching to the
choir) about saving a dog in the surf.
dogs have a low center of gravity, walk on 4 legs and have more
insulation than humans.
people have a high center of gravity, walk on 2 legs and get
hypothermic rather quickly in the cold waters of norcal.
if your dog gets caught in dangerous surf or a person does same, which
do you think will more likely get out safely , person or the dog?

lp


15 Jan 2008 09:48:10
XPEH
Re: woman loses life in surf

that depends on weather dog is male or female ... i can't compare apples to
oranges if you catch me drift?

"lp" <lloyd@surfvid.com > wrote in message
news:322ec2c7-01a4-46d3-a6e0-2ea0e020dc8e@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> from sfgate:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/14/MNJQUF160.DTL
>
> rip for the young woman and a word of advise (okay preaching to the
> choir) about saving a dog in the surf.
> dogs have a low center of gravity, walk on 4 legs and have more
> insulation than humans.
> people have a high center of gravity, walk on 2 legs and get
> hypothermic rather quickly in the cold waters of norcal.
> if your dog gets caught in dangerous surf or a person does same, which
> do you think will more likely get out safely , person or the dog?
>
> lp




15 Jan 2008 09:11:12
Mike Sullivan
Re: woman loses life in surf


"lp" <lloyd@surfvid.com > wrote in message
news:322ec2c7-01a4-46d3-a6e0-2ea0e020dc8e@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> from sfgate:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/14/MNJQUF160.DTL
>
> rip for the young woman and a word of advise (okay preaching to the
> choir) about saving a dog in the surf.
> dogs have a low center of gravity, walk on 4 legs and have more
> insulation than humans.
> people have a high center of gravity, walk on 2 legs and get
> hypothermic rather quickly in the cold waters of norcal.
> if your dog gets caught in dangerous surf or a person does same, which
> do you think will more likely get out safely , person or the dog?

B. talked to state guard who was up there at the time.

This was Saturday, which was a beautiful day with big big surf,
in that spot prolly 10-12, and the tide was up in the morning, and
apparently this happened late morning. The dogs rushed into the
water, got in trouble, I suspect the guy thought he'd just wade in
to pull them out, and stepped into a hole, all you norcals know which
hole I mean. GF who was a lifeguard before, goes after him. I
wonder if she stripped down. Witnesses said big set hammered the
two of them, neither were able to make any progress but the luck
of the random wash pushed the guy closer in where he could get his
feet and she got sucked to the inside of a big set where she got
hammered.

The whole incident took no longer than 5 minutes, the first ranger/guard was
there
in under 10 minutes.

If I'm headed to beach, I always have speedos underneath and at least
one fin somewhere with me, even if I have no plans to go in. I
also talk to ppl at beach I encounter, especially ppl with kids.
Weirdo I guess.




15 Jan 2008 22:35:20
lp
Re: woman loses life in surf

On Jan 15, 9:11 am, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@slacSNIP.stanford.edu >
wrote:
> "lp" <ll...@surfvid.com> wrote in message
>
> news:322ec2c7-01a4-46d3-a6e0-2ea0e020dc8e@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > from sfgate:
> >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/01/14/MNJQUF160...
>
> > rip for the young woman and a word of advise (okay preaching to the
> > choir) about saving a dog in the surf.
> > dogs have a low center of gravity, walk on 4 legs and have more
> > insulation than humans.
> > people have a high center of gravity, walk on 2 legs and get
> > hypothermic rather quickly in the cold waters of norcal.
> > if your dog gets caught in dangerous surf or a person does same, which
> > do you think will more likely get out safely , person or the dog?
>
> B. talked to state guard who was up there at the time.
>
> This was Saturday, which was a beautiful day with big big surf,
> in that spot prolly 10-12, and the tide was up in the morning, and
> apparently this happened late morning. The dogs rushed into the
> water, got in trouble, I suspect the guy thought he'd just wade in
> to pull them out, and stepped into a hole, all you norcals know which
> hole I mean. GF who was a lifeguard before, goes after him. I
> wonder if she stripped down. Witnesses said big set hammered the
> two of them, neither were able to make any progress but the luck
> of the random wash pushed the guy closer in where he could get his
> feet and she got sucked to the inside of a big set where she got
> hammered.
>
> The whole incident took no longer than 5 minutes, the first ranger/guard was
> there
> in under 10 minutes.
>
> If I'm headed to beach, I always have speedos underneath and at least
> one fin somewhere with me, even if I have no plans to go in. I
> also talk to ppl at beach I encounter, especially ppl with kids.
> Weirdo I guess.

thanks for the additional info mike.
though i'll say it again, a dog has significant advantages to make it
out of a treacherous surf zone than a human.
if my dog gets in trouble in the surf, i'm not going in after it, if i
think it's life threatening.
however, if my kid goes in, i gotta go.

lp






16 Jan 2008 08:55:34
Mike Sullivan
Re: woman loses life in surf


"lp" <lloyd@surfvid.com > wrote in message
news:64e98232-0908-4f88-a626-89dff85c8207@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 15, 9:11 am, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@slacSNIP.stanford.edu>
> wrote:
>> "lp" <ll...@surfvid.com> wrote in message

snip

> thanks for the additional info mike.
> though i'll say it again, a dog has significant advantages to make it
> out of a treacherous surf zone than a human.
> if my dog gets in trouble in the surf, i'm not going in after it, if i
> think it's life threatening.
> however, if my kid goes in, i gotta go.

What I find most intriguing is the series of events
and the decisionmaking made by two people
who are supposedly pros around oceans and
understand rescue.

I can well imagine that there are many who've been around
boats and in the sea that don't know what a Norcal beach
can be like.

They certainly must have been familiar with cold water and it's
threat.

Here's a question, lp. A kid gets pulled in right at your spot,
on a nice warm day this time of year with 5-6 ft swells,
you are in your street clothes.
do you go right after her, or do you strip down?

question 2: how many ppl at your spot who are simply
walking on the beach have gotten in trouble in the water
such that they needed rescue?





16 Jan 2008 11:08:06
lp
Re: woman loses life in surf

On Jan 16, 8:55 am, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@slacSNIP.stanford.edu >
wrote:
> "lp" <ll...@surfvid.com> wrote in message
>
> news:64e98232-0908-4f88-a626-89dff85c8207@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Jan 15, 9:11 am, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@slacSNIP.stanford.edu>
> > wrote:
> >> "lp" <ll...@surfvid.com> wrote in message
>
> snip
>
> > thanks for the additional info mike.
> > though i'll say it again, a dog has significant advantages to make it
> > out of a treacherous surf zone than a human.
> > if my dog gets in trouble in the surf, i'm not going in after it, if i
> > think it's life threatening.
> > however, if my kid goes in, i gotta go.
>
> What I find most intriguing is the series of events
> and the decisionmaking made by two people
> who are supposedly pros around oceans and
> understand rescue.
>
> I can well imagine that there are many who've been around
> boats and in the sea that don't know what a Norcal beach
> can be like.
>
> They certainly must have been familiar with cold water and it's
> threat.
>
> Here's a question, lp. A kid gets pulled in right at your spot,
> on a nice warm day this time of year with 5-6 ft swells,
> you are in your street clothes.
> do you go right after her, or do you strip down?
>
as you know, these type of answers are hard because there are so many
variable that come into play that might determine your or my response
to a given situation.
my first thought is reading the specifics of the situation, because,
as you said you can step into a hole or trough which takes you from 1
foot into 6 feet or more of fast moving water with oh shore break.
given the situation of 15-20' surf, i'm probably not diving in without
wetsuit and/or floatation
also, i have a lifeline,fins and boards at my house which is a 100
yards away, so i'd go that route most likely.
if i wasn't at my place, i'd first look for a line or pole or
floatation, but loose the pants or other bulky clothes, if i needed to
go in.

> question 2: how many ppl at your spot who are simply
> walking on the beach have gotten in trouble in the water
> such that they needed rescue?

it happens occasionally, but fortunately much less than it could,
given some of the dumb ass stuff people do or don't do.
it happens much more at places like ob that have a gradual slope to
the beach and strong currents.

lp




16 Jan 2008 11:42:11
Mike Sullivan
Re: woman loses life in surf


"lp" <lloyd@surfvid.com > wrote in message
news:d24d4449-4a73-461e-ad95-b4b57fd9fe34@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 16, 8:55 am, "Mike Sullivan" <s...@slacSNIP.stanford.edu>
> wrote:
>> "lp" <ll...@surfvid.com> wrote in message


snip

> as you know, these type of answers are hard because there are so many
> variable that come into play that might determine your or my response
> to a given situation.
> my first thought is reading the specifics of the situation, because,
> as you said you can step into a hole or trough which takes you from 1
> foot into 6 feet or more of fast moving water with oh shore break.
> given the situation of 15-20' surf, i'm probably not diving in without
> wetsuit and/or floatation
> also, i have a lifeline,fins and boards at my house which is a 100
> yards away, so i'd go that route most likely.
> if i wasn't at my place, i'd first look for a line or pole or
> floatation, but loose the pants or other bulky clothes, if i needed to
> go in.

Sounds like you've thought it through - really good.

A river yakker I know said a guy drowned on the Yuba
going after his dog that got dragged from swimming hole
into swift current. Dog made it out easily, of course.

>
>> question 2: how many ppl at your spot who are simply
>> walking on the beach have gotten in trouble in the water
>> such that they needed rescue?
>
> it happens occasionally, but fortunately much less than it could,
> given some of the dumb ass stuff people do or don't do.
> it happens much more at places like ob that have a gradual slope to
> the beach and strong currents.

ob gets a lot more visitors too, and tons of tourists, some
unfamiliar w/ ocean.
Your spot is a bit more local.

Talked about this to a friend who's an outstanding climber. He
says that most serious climbing accidents happen hiking to
and from climb. He believes there's a mode of thinking
when you climb that you go through all your safety procedures
and get through some very difficult stretches quite safely. On
the trail, sometimes you'll encounter a rock you need to get
over, you have a pack of equipment on your back, hiking boots,
and a simple climb with the wrong mode of thinking becomes
a fall, sometimes a bad one with no safety rigged.

In the programs I teach at the lake, I've been trying to get a handle
around
how to teach that thinking in general, in regards to being near
any kind of water.

This incident is certainly instructive, for sure. I'm asking B. to find
out more for me.






18 Jan 2008 17:21:33
ljswahine
Re: woman loses life in surf

Good to hear the dialogue on safety and forethought. Scary to think 2
coastguarders could get in so much trouble. There is no guarantee for
anyone, but the ocean can be a different beast in different places. No
cal is way different than florida and they are both originally from
inland. Very sad what happened.

I don't know what I would do myself. Took early lifeguard training,
they always say to strip down first, but that is not the first thing I
would think of anymore. Good reminder to not go in after a dog. I
don't have one now, but I could see when I did wanting to if something
happened, tho not in that size waves. My kid, definitely, no matter
what, unless there was someone better equiped around, and even then,
I'ld be in if there was any chance I could save him.

Sounds like a good idea to go to the beach prepared in rougher surf
days. You're right, you never know. Tourists, kids, cold, drops, rip-
tides. If you're not used to cold water, no wetsuit, wet clothes,
could drag you down quickly. You can never have too much water safety,
and good to have it for where you are. The northeast is cold, but I
think you have more tourists in the northwest year round.


19 Jan 2008 07:51:20
Foon
Re: woman loses life in surf

In article <d24d4449-4a73-461e-ad95-b4b57fd9fe34@q39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com >,
lp says...

>it happens occasionally, but fortunately much less than it could,
>given some of the dumb ass stuff people do or don't do.
>it happens much more at places like ob that have a gradual slope to
>the beach and strong currents.

A couple years ago a guy on my beach was throwing a big stick in the ocean and
coaxing his golden retriever to go get it. It was cold, water temps in low 50s
but the retriever was doing ok in the 3 foot surf. I noticed he was drifting
toward a rip and in 4 seconds got swept out 25 feet offshore and was struggling
to get back in. The owner panicked and headed in after his dog without stripping
down. I knew in his heavy clothes and with the big soaking dog he was going to
have trouble. I called the Beach Patrol # immediately and told them what street
he was on then grabbed a rope and my bodyboard and headed down to help. By time
I got shoreside the owner had gotten his dog but he was too far out and too
tired to swim back in, I tied the rope to the BB and waded out waist deep to
push it into the rip but a wave pushed it back in. I yelled to the guy to swim
parallel to the shore to swim out of the rip which he tried to do dragging the
dog by the collar. Within 5 minutes a Beach Patrol truck showed up and the guard
headed out on a rescue board and got them both. Lesson learned for the owner and
maybe the dog.


Foon