30 Jul 2005 21:23:58
Rich Fife
Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

1) My opponent hits a shot that goes to the back left corner.
2) She huddles up against the left wall to avoid the ball.
3) I get into position facing backward (with my back to my opponent) to do a
hard kill into the front left corner.
4) I realize as I start to swing that she was (note tense) standing right
behind me and I'm about to hit her in the back point blank, so I hold up.
5) Ta da! She's actually managed to get out of the way and I wouldn't have
hit her.

So I called a hinder based on a faulty impression of where she was standing.
I had genuine reason to believe that she might still be there and I couldn't
turn around to check without taking my eye off the ball at a crucial moment.
I retracted the hinder and gave her the point.

Should I have kept the hinder?

-- Rich Fife --




30 Jul 2005 23:50:36
E. Hill
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

I would have kept the hinder. From what you've stated, she waited too long
to start moving, and your instinct told you she was in the way.

It might be a touchy call, but most people I play with would appreciate the
call. It'll just get replayed. No big deal, unless it was a particularly
long rally. In that case, some people might feel a little ripped off.

Eric




31 Jul 2005 11:22:22
Rich Fife
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

Thanks!

-- Rich --


"E. Hill" <anybody@anywhere.com > wrote in message
news:85CdnTj_yPVw6XHfRVn-vQ@adelphia.com...
>I would have kept the hinder. From what you've stated, she waited too long
>to start moving, and your instinct told you she was in the way.
>
> It might be a touchy call, but most people I play with would appreciate
> the call. It'll just get replayed. No big deal, unless it was a
> particularly long rally. In that case, some people might feel a little
> ripped off.
>
> Eric
>




31 Jul 2005 12:25:59
Dave
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

I agree. Call the hinder. If you don't, the next time you are faced
with the same situation, you will unload a blistering backhand right
into her because she didn't move on that occasion. When in doubt, I
hold up.

Dave



31 Jul 2005 12:56:12
Joel
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

you may have been right to call the hinder. how careful or careless you
wish to be is your business. you were not right imo to keep it.
in a tournament setting you may get away with this one time with a
half-hearted ref; no way you (should) get away with it more than once.
thats my opinion.

here's a similar situation. i played a little club doubles tourney a
few weeks ago. competitive but more on the friendly side- know what i
mean?
so i dove for a shot and got it. one guy on the other team thought i
didn't get it- so he caught the ball and ended the rally and said, 'you
didn't get that'. three of us agreed that i had gotten the shot.
so the guy says 'ok, sorry... let's play it over'.
should i have played it over? no way! he stopped a rally by catching a
live ball. my partner and i took the point.

sometimes your intent is honorable but you are just plain wrong.

back to yard work.

j

Dave wrote:
> I agree. Call the hinder. If you don't, the next time you are faced
> with the same situation, you will unload a blistering backhand right
> into her because she didn't move on that occasion. When in doubt, I
> hold up.
>
> Dave



01 Aug 2005 02:16:20
Spidey
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

No ... never hit a woman. Sorry if I sound male-chauvenistic ... but I've
been in that situation many many a time (esp in mixed dbls) and I may have
"unleased" once ... and I felt very bad ... VERY BAD. Most of the time ...
I go to the ceiling ... so GO TO THE CEILING if you have the slightest
feeling you will hit her. After the rally you can explain the situation and
argue for the hinder (nothing like arguing with a woman) ... if it costs you
the point, then so be it but don't hit a woman. Go ahead and hit a man if
you want ... they can take it ;-)

BTW: this isn't in the rules book but I would follow it ... unconditionally
;-)

--
ProRacquetball.Net
http://www.ProRacquetball.Net

Racquetball Central
http://www.RacquetballCentral.Com

"Rich Fife" <rfife@amug.org > wrote in message
news:q_-dnQpcK6vKz3HfRVn-vw@comcast.com...
> 1) My opponent hits a shot that goes to the back left corner.
> 2) She huddles up against the left wall to avoid the ball.
> 3) I get into position facing backward (with my back to my opponent) to do
> a hard kill into the front left corner.
> 4) I realize as I start to swing that she was (note tense) standing right
> behind me and I'm about to hit her in the back point blank, so I hold up.
> 5) Ta da! She's actually managed to get out of the way and I wouldn't
> have hit her.
>
> So I called a hinder based on a faulty impression of where she was
> standing. I had genuine reason to believe that she might still be there
> and I couldn't turn around to check without taking my eye off the ball at
> a crucial moment. I retracted the hinder and gave her the point.
>
> Should I have kept the hinder?
>
> -- Rich Fife --
>
>




01 Aug 2005 01:07:16
Nigel Reed
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

Spidey <spiderman@proracquetball.net > wrote:
> No ... never hit a woman. Sorry if I sound male-chauvenistic ... but I've
> been in that situation many many a time (esp in mixed dbls) and I may have
> "unleased" once ... and I felt very bad ... VERY BAD. Most of the time ...
> I go to the ceiling ... so GO TO THE CEILING if you have the slightest
> feeling you will hit her. After the rally you can explain the situation and
> argue for the hinder (nothing like arguing with a woman) ... if it costs you
> the point, then so be it but don't hit a woman. Go ahead and hit a man if
> you want ... they can take it ;-)

The thing is, you step onto the court and you know what you're letting
yourself in for. I don't see why playing a women or a man makes any
difference in this case.

On another note, I was playing cut throat today and my partner was
against the wall. I hit a shot that went near him, our opponent took a
half hearted swing since it was so close. The ball didn't hit the wall
and he called a hinder. I told him that he should have called the hinder
before hitting the ball. He claimed he only took a half hearted swing
because his opponent was in the way. I disagreed but he still took the
point. I don't think the rule says anyting about retarting your swing
just in case you hit your opponent. If he thought he might have hit him,
then he should have called hinder before the shot. Was I right to
believe he should not have taken the point?

Regards
Nigel

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01 Aug 2005 06:30:05
Mike Jacobs
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

Nah, Rich, don't take the hinder... instead "do over" lol...

It's funny, but a tempermental player I know will argue all day long
about a hinder called on him but is more than happy to "do over" (we
joke that it's all in the way you say it).



01 Aug 2005 07:19:06
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

Nigel,
personally I've seen this quite a few times, and to me it's almost
always a hinder.
if I'm in the middle of my swing when I decide I need a safety holdup,
it ends up looking like a half-hearted swing. then I call the hinder
immediately regardless of whether the shot was good, bad or great.
If someone is obviously 'powering down' during their swing to avoid
hitting someone and they still touch the ball, I don't claim that they
"should have held up." it's usually obvious to me that they tried to
hold up.

and reading your question again, what do you mean by "he called a
hinder" and "he still took the point" if your opponent called a hinder
on a safety holdup, how did he take the point?



01 Aug 2005 14:12:10
Otto Dietrich
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

Hi

I'll take a shot at why he "took the point". He probably thought that it
was a penalty hinder which, by the way, the Safety Hold-up rule [3.14(a)6]
allows to be called if warranted.

At your service,

Otto

OTTO E. DIETRICH
National Rules Commissioner
USA Racquetball
"Play by the Rules"
http://www.usaracquetball.com/Default.aspx?tabid=839

<silverspleen@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:1122905946.105168.38800@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Nigel,
> personally I've seen this quite a few times, and to me it's almost
> always a hinder.
> if I'm in the middle of my swing when I decide I need a safety holdup,
> it ends up looking like a half-hearted swing. then I call the hinder
> immediately regardless of whether the shot was good, bad or great.
> If someone is obviously 'powering down' during their swing to avoid
> hitting someone and they still touch the ball, I don't claim that they
> "should have held up." it's usually obvious to me that they tried to
> hold up.
>
> and reading your question again, what do you mean by "he called a
> hinder" and "he still took the point" if your opponent called a hinder
> on a safety holdup, how did he take the point?
>




01 Aug 2005 14:21:00
Otto Dietrich
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

Hi Nigel

Certainly the VERY BEST approach is to show that your COULD take the shot,
but NOT actually hit it and call out "Hinder" right away.

Of course, that's not always possible. Sometimes a half-hearted shot may be
taken and it probably should be recognized as a hinder provided that the
eventual notice of the hinder is given right away -- meaning its called
before the hitter has a chance to see if the resulting shot was any good or
not.

Usually, the longer that interval is, the less believable the hinder call
is.

With no referee, this type of call is up to the honesty of the players
themselves.

At your service,

Otto

OTTO E. DIETRICH
National Rules Commissioner
USA Racquetball
"Play by the Rules"
http://www.usaracquetball.com/Default.aspx?tabid=839


"Nigel Reed" <see@www.nelgin.nu-slash-qconfirm.html > wrote in message
news:kpq0s2-ve1.ln1@wibble.nelgin.nu...
> Spidey <spiderman@proracquetball.net> wrote:
>> No ... never hit a woman. Sorry if I sound male-chauvenistic ... but
>> I've
>> been in that situation many many a time (esp in mixed dbls) and I may
>> have
>> "unleased" once ... and I felt very bad ... VERY BAD. Most of the time
>> ...
>> I go to the ceiling ... so GO TO THE CEILING if you have the slightest
>> feeling you will hit her. After the rally you can explain the situation
>> and
>> argue for the hinder (nothing like arguing with a woman) ... if it costs
>> you
>> the point, then so be it but don't hit a woman. Go ahead and hit a man
>> if
>> you want ... they can take it ;-)
>
> The thing is, you step onto the court and you know what you're letting
> yourself in for. I don't see why playing a women or a man makes any
> difference in this case.
>
> On another note, I was playing cut throat today and my partner was
> against the wall. I hit a shot that went near him, our opponent took a
> half hearted swing since it was so close. The ball didn't hit the wall
> and he called a hinder. I told him that he should have called the hinder
> before hitting the ball. He claimed he only took a half hearted swing
> because his opponent was in the way. I disagreed but he still took the
> point. I don't think the rule says anyting about retarting your swing
> just in case you hit your opponent. If he thought he might have hit him,
> then he should have called hinder before the shot. Was I right to
> believe he should not have taken the point?
>
> Regards
> Nigel
>
> --
> www.myoldcontacts.com - Tell your friends to tell their friends
> www.sysadmininc.com - Consultancy, Service, Sales, Networking...
> www.british-expats.com - Connect with British Expats World Wide
> www.kxez.com/shows_britishinvasion.php - 9-11pm Sunday. KXEZ 92.1 FM
>
>
> "I reject your reality and substitute it with my own" --Adam Savage.




01 Aug 2005 14:16:23
Nigel Reed
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations

Otto Dietrich <ottod@bellsouth.net > wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'll take a shot at why he "took the point". He probably thought that it
> was a penalty hinder which, by the way, the Safety Hold-up rule [3.14(a)6]
> allows to be called if warranted.

Yeah, my mistake. He didn't "take the point" but he called a hinder and
reserved the ball.

My point is that he didn't call a hinder until the ball was hit and
failed to reach the front wall.

My partner was trapped between the side wall and our opponent and didn't
have anywhere to go, I returned the ball to the front then side just in
front of them both.

According to 3.14(a)6 "this call must be made immediately". It wasn't it
was done after hitting the ball, after it bounced on the floor and
rolled to the front wall. He said it was obvious he held his shot back.
Maybe, maybe he wanted to lightly tap it since we were both in the back
court.

Regards
Nigel
--
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01 Aug 2005 20:47:25
Matthew Hills
Re: Warning: I Brake (Hinder) for Hallucinations


Rich Fife <rfife@amug.org > wrote:
>
>So I called a hinder based on a faulty impression of where she was standing.

As you say, a safety holdup is appropriate, particularly when you have reason
to believe that the player would be hit/hurt.

If they cleared, then it should be a safety hinder (replay)

If they didn't clear, it might be a penalty hinder (you win rally)--although
in most recreational play this is commonly replayed...


Conversely, if your opponent is playing correctly (ie, clearing the lanes
while you are preparing your shot), then you shouldn't be repeatedly
calling these holdups.

Matt