03 Sep 2006 09:16:38
APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

In the APA, is it permissible to change cues during a game or match? I
understand that I can't use a jump cue or break a 3 piece jump/break
cue down. Rule 33 states:


33. EQUIPMENT - In general, any piece of equipment designed
specifically for pocket billiards, with the exception of jump cues
and laser devices, is acceptable in APA League play. Special
equipment, such as bridges and cue extenders, are legal. Jump
shots are legal, when executed properly (see JUMP SHOTS described
in Definitions), but such shots must be attempted using
your regular game cue. Those cues especially designed for jump
shots MAY NOT be used in competition. Players are not allowed
to break their cues down to attempt jump shots.

This rule does not address changing cues during a game or match except
as it applies to jump shots. What if my tip pops off? Am I allowed to
go to my second shaft? Or my break cue?

This question comes up on a regular basis in our local APA League.
IMHO, I should be able to change cues at will since the rule doesn't
specifically prohibit me from doing so. Unless, of course, there is
another rule that addresses this question.



03 Sep 2006 12:44:14
Tom S.( AKA ..Ratchet )
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

99baggett@comcast.net wrote:

What if my tip pops off? Am I allowed to
> go to my second shaft? Or my break cue?
>

In the case of equipment malfunction you most definitely can switch
shafts or cues !

Tom S. - wishes you could switch matches too !lol !


03 Sep 2006 10:23:33
OneIron
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

Tom S.( AKA ..Ratchet ) wrote:
> 99baggett@comcast.net wrote:
>
> What if my tip pops off? Am I allowed to
> > go to my second shaft? Or my break cue?
> >
>
> In the case of equipment malfunction you most definitely can switch
> shafts or cues !
>
> Tom S. - wishes you could switch matches too !lol !

I would assume that to be the case but the rule doesn't say anything
about it. Sounds like the APA needs to address this in an unambiguous
rule.



03 Sep 2006 18:48:59
Ron Hudson
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

On 3 Sep 2006 10:23:33 -0700, "OneIron" <99baggett@comcast.net > wrote:

>I would assume that to be the case but the rule doesn't say anything
>about it. Sounds like the APA needs to address this in an unambiguous
>rule.

Just as a point of interest, jump cues are allowed (subject to house rules) by
the APA in their new masters division.


Ron


04 Sep 2006 00:38:56
dave y.
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

On 3 Sep 2006 09:16:38 -0700, 99baggett@comcast.net wrote:

>In the APA, is it permissible to change cues during a game or match? I
>understand that I can't use a jump cue or break a 3 piece jump/break
>cue down. Rule 33 states:
>
In our local league this has come up. I think the LO has made a local
rule that you can't change cues, probably out of ignorance I would
bet.


04 Sep 2006 10:10:06
Ron Hudson
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 00:38:56 GMT, dave y. <nospam@myhouse.com > wrote:

>On 3 Sep 2006 09:16:38 -0700, 99baggett@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>In the APA, is it permissible to change cues during a game or match? I
>>understand that I can't use a jump cue or break a 3 piece jump/break
>>cue down. Rule 33 states:
>>
>In our local league this has come up. I think the LO has made a local
>rule that you can't change cues, probably out of ignorance I would
>bet.

Maybe not. Your LO may have made the arbitrary ruling because of players having
abused the situation.


Ron


04 Sep 2006 08:23:21
OneIron
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match


Ron Hudson wrote:
> On 3 Sep 2006 10:23:33 -0700, "OneIron" <99baggett@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >I would assume that to be the case but the rule doesn't say anything
> >about it. Sounds like the APA needs to address this in an unambiguous
> >rule.
>
> Just as a point of interest, jump cues are allowed (subject to house rules) by
> the APA in their new masters division.
>
>
> Ron

Interesting. Maybe there's a chance that regular APA players will be
allowed jump cues in the future.



04 Sep 2006 21:28:16
John Black
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

In article <82gof21sg1jrnqc6i4d1h310kd8hhh4hes@4ax.com >,
Ron@Intermediacorp.net says...
> On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 00:38:56 GMT, dave y. <nospam@myhouse.com> wrote:
>
> >On 3 Sep 2006 09:16:38 -0700, 99baggett@comcast.net wrote:
> >
> >>In the APA, is it permissible to change cues during a game or match? I
> >>understand that I can't use a jump cue or break a 3 piece jump/break
> >>cue down. Rule 33 states:
> >>
> >In our local league this has come up. I think the LO has made a local
> >rule that you can't change cues, probably out of ignorance I would
> >bet.
>
> Maybe not. Your LO may have made the arbitrary ruling because of players having
> abused the situation.

How can you abuse the situation? Who cares if different cues are used?
If its a matter of worrying that people will waste time doing this,
there are tons of different ways to waste time which is why matches
typically have some kind of time limit imposed. But that is usually
never an issue except when a couple of twos or threes play and have long
long games because they can't make a ball.

John Black


04 Sep 2006 16:54:35
Ron Hudson
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 21:28:16 GMT, John Black <jblack@texas.net > wrote:

>> >In our local league this has come up. I think the LO has made a local
>> >rule that you can't change cues, probably out of ignorance I would
>> >bet.
>>
>> Maybe not. Your LO may have made the arbitrary ruling because of players having
>> abused the situation.
>
>How can you abuse the situation? Who cares if different cues are used?
>If its a matter of worrying that people will waste time doing this,
>there are tons of different ways to waste time which is why matches
>typically have some kind of time limit imposed. But that is usually
>never an issue except when a couple of twos or threes play and have long
>long games because they can't make a ball.
>
>John Black

Well, apparently the APA cares, since it's their rule that forbids it. You
could abuse the rule by claiming that your cue shaft or tip or some other part
is defective and you need to change to another cue when in fact there is nothing
wrong.

I don't know why someone would find a need to do so, but I'm sure that someone
would come up with a reason, especially if it's against the rules. I'm sure
that's why they make cases that allow you to arm yourself with a half dozen or
more shafts and 3 or 4 butts plus a jump stick plus a bridge. I'm waiting for
one with a fridge and a pantry. It may already be out there.

As for time limits, the closing time of the bar is seemingly the only limiting
factor for APA regular weekly matches.


Ron


05 Sep 2006 14:56:17
John Black
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

In article <rg7pf2dui33udshjre5o0mrir93js278o3@4ax.com >,
Ron@Intermediacorp.net says...
> On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 21:28:16 GMT, John Black <jblack@texas.net> wrote:
>
> >> >In our local league this has come up. I think the LO has made a local
> >> >rule that you can't change cues, probably out of ignorance I would
> >> >bet.
> >>
> >> Maybe not. Your LO may have made the arbitrary ruling because of players having
> >> abused the situation.
> >
> >How can you abuse the situation? Who cares if different cues are used?
> >If its a matter of worrying that people will waste time doing this,
> >there are tons of different ways to waste time which is why matches
> >typically have some kind of time limit imposed. But that is usually
> >never an issue except when a couple of twos or threes play and have long
> >long games because they can't make a ball.
> >
> >John Black
>
> Well, apparently the APA cares, since it's their rule that forbids it.

I guess I'm trying to figure out why they care.

> You
> could abuse the rule by claiming that your cue shaft or tip or some other part
> is defective and you need to change to another cue when in fact there is nothing
> wrong.

But so what? Why would I care if someone I'm playing wants to switch
cues for whatever reason? To me the rule is as pointless as saying that
once you start using a piece of chalk, you must continue to use that
piece of chalk for the rest of the match unless you can PROVE that it
has become defective in some way.

John Black


05 Sep 2006 10:30:09
Ron Hudson
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 14:56:17 GMT, John Black <jblack@texas.net > wrote:

>> Well, apparently the APA cares, since it's their rule that forbids it.
>
>I guess I'm trying to figure out why they care.
>
>> You
>> could abuse the rule by claiming that your cue shaft or tip or some other part
>> is defective and you need to change to another cue when in fact there is nothing
>> wrong.
>
>But so what? Why would I care if someone I'm playing wants to switch
>cues for whatever reason? To me the rule is as pointless as saying that
>once you start using a piece of chalk, you must continue to use that
>piece of chalk for the rest of the match unless you can PROVE that it
>has become defective in some way.
>
>John Black


Oooooh. That's a good idea. I'll mention that to them. They'll probably be
embarrassed that them never thought of that.


Ron


05 Sep 2006 14:58:09
OneIron
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match


Ron Hudson wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Sep 2006 21:28:16 GMT, John Black <jblack@texas.net> wrote:
>
> >> >In our local league this has come up. I think the LO has made a local
> >> >rule that you can't change cues, probably out of ignorance I would
> >> >bet.
> >>
> >> Maybe not. Your LO may have made the arbitrary ruling because of players having
> >> abused the situation.
> >
> >How can you abuse the situation? Who cares if different cues are used?
> >If its a matter of worrying that people will waste time doing this,
> >there are tons of different ways to waste time which is why matches
> >typically have some kind of time limit imposed. But that is usually
> >never an issue except when a couple of twos or threes play and have long
> >long games because they can't make a ball.
> >
> >John Black
>
> Well, apparently the APA cares, since it's their rule that forbids it. You
> could abuse the rule by claiming that your cue shaft or tip or some other part
> is defective and you need to change to another cue when in fact there is nothing
> wrong.
>
> I don't know why someone would find a need to do so, but I'm sure that someone
> would come up with a reason, especially if it's against the rules. I'm sure
> that's why they make cases that allow you to arm yourself with a half dozen or
> more shafts and 3 or 4 butts plus a jump stick plus a bridge. I'm waiting for
> one with a fridge and a pantry. It may already be out there.
>
> As for time limits, the closing time of the bar is seemingly the only limiting
> factor for APA regular weekly matches.
>
>
> Ron

But my point is that the APA rule book does not specifically forbid
changing cues. But most folks say that there is a rule against it.
Which rule forbids it? Not Rule 33 since it only applies to jump cues.

Mike



05 Sep 2006 22:10:12
Steve Henderson
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match


"OneIron" <99baggett@comcast.net > wrote in message
news:1157493489.237528.272380@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

> But my point is that the APA rule book does not specifically forbid
> changing cues. But most folks say that there is a rule against it.
> Which rule forbids it? Not Rule 33 since it only applies to jump cues.

Check with your LO on the local by-laws.....

Some DO prohibit changing cues.




05 Sep 2006 18:40:26
Ron Hudson
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match

On 5 Sep 2006 14:58:09 -0700, "OneIron" <99baggett@comcast.net > wrote:

>But my point is that the APA rule book does not specifically forbid
>changing cues. But most folks say that there is a rule against it.
>Which rule forbids it? Not Rule 33 since it only applies to jump cues.
>
>Mike

Misquoting the rules or stating a rule exists when it doesn't is not unusual. It
seems to usually come up when such a rule would be to your disadvantage.

A great number of APA players apparently think there is a rule which prohibits
shooting with your grip hand above your shoulder, as in a jump or masse shot,
and they will tell you about it vigorously should you attempt such a shot.

Just carry a copy of the team manual and the local league by-laws (the LO should
provide a copy of both to each team) and when someone quotes a rule to you, ask
them to show you where it is in one of those documents. Just asking them to do
so will settle most arguments. It will at least fluster your opponent. It may
be they were trying to do that to you with the rule thing.


Ron


05 Sep 2006 19:19:22
OneIron
Re: APA Rules - Changing Cues during a match


Ron Hudson wrote:
> On 5 Sep 2006 14:58:09 -0700, "OneIron" <99baggett@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >But my point is that the APA rule book does not specifically forbid
> >changing cues. But most folks say that there is a rule against it.
> >Which rule forbids it? Not Rule 33 since it only applies to jump cues.
> >
> >Mike
>
> Misquoting the rules or stating a rule exists when it doesn't is not unusual. It
> seems to usually come up when such a rule would be to your disadvantage.
>
> A great number of APA players apparently think there is a rule which prohibits
> shooting with your grip hand above your shoulder, as in a jump or masse shot,
> and they will tell you about it vigorously should you attempt such a shot.
>
> Just carry a copy of the team manual and the local league by-laws (the LO should
> provide a copy of both to each team) and when someone quotes a rule to you, ask
> them to show you where it is in one of those documents. Just asking them to do
> so will settle most arguments. It will at least fluster your opponent. It may
> be they were trying to do that to you with the rule thing.
>
>
> Ron

You're right. I have a copy of the Local By-Laws coming and a current
copy of the Team Manual. Thanks for everyone's input.

Mike