27 Nov 2006 19:06:38
Danzig
there is no best

I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the best
of all time. Rubbish.


27 Nov 2006 19:08:50
Danzig
Re: there is no best

Danzig wrote:
> I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the best
> of all time. Rubbish.


People never consider horses that ran a few years back in these
comparisons. There are only the better ones...not the
best.....Historical perspective takes time to establish the real pecking
order.

Tim Yatcak


27 Nov 2006 14:38:04
Jimbo
Re: there is no best


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the best of
>all time. Rubbish.

You're right on this......today a horse can win 7 of his first 8 starts and
right away he's one of the "all time greats"......




27 Nov 2006 19:55:35
Danzig
Re: there is no best

Jimbo wrote:
> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>> I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the best of
>> all time. Rubbish.
>
> You're right on this......today a horse can win 7 of his first 8 starts and
> right away he's one of the "all time greats"......
>
>
tell me about a Forego and I will listen with comparisons of all time
greats: longevity, adaptation to distances and tracks, carrying heavy
imposts and still not embarrassing himself


27 Nov 2006 21:14:26
G-Man
Re: there is no best


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the best of
>all time. Rubbish.

If you bothered reading the link you would have noticed that it was Frankie
that said that. You would also have noticed that he didn't mean the best of
all time - that was Arkle.

Cheers,
G-Man



27 Nov 2006 21:15:22
G-Man
Re: there is no best


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:XoHah.16922$p9.7602@edtnps82...
> Jimbo wrote:
>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>> news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>>> I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the best
>>> of all time. Rubbish.
>>
>> You're right on this......today a horse can win 7 of his first 8 starts
>> and right away he's one of the "all time greats"......
> tell me about a Forego and I will listen with comparisons of all time
> greats: longevity, adaptation to distances and tracks, carrying heavy
> imposts and still not embarrassing himself

That's why Arkle is also called "Himself".

Cheers,
G-Man



27 Nov 2006 21:45:23
Danzig
Re: there is no best

G-Man wrote:
>
> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:XoHah.16922$p9.7602@edtnps82...
>> Jimbo wrote:
>>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>>> news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>>>> I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the
>>>> best of all time. Rubbish.
>>>
>>> You're right on this......today a horse can win 7 of his first 8
>>> starts and right away he's one of the "all time greats"......
>> tell me about a Forego and I will listen with comparisons of all time
>> greats: longevity, adaptation to distances and tracks, carrying heavy
>> imposts and still not embarrassing himself
>
> That's why Arkle is also called "Himself".
>
> Cheers,
> G-Man
have no idea who ARKIE is


27 Nov 2006 23:36:36
G-Man
Re: there is no best


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:T%Iah.20867$uj6.12308@edtnps89...
> G-Man wrote:
>>
>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>> news:XoHah.16922$p9.7602@edtnps82...
>>> Jimbo wrote:
>>>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>>>>> I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the
>>>>> best of all time. Rubbish.
>>>>
>>>> You're right on this......today a horse can win 7 of his first 8 starts
>>>> and right away he's one of the "all time greats"......
>>> tell me about a Forego and I will listen with comparisons of all time
>>> greats: longevity, adaptation to distances and tracks, carrying heavy
>>> imposts and still not embarrassing himself
>>
>> That's why Arkle is also called "Himself".
>>
>> Cheers,
>> G-Man
> have no idea who ARKIE is

Do a search but make sure you spell arkLe correctly.

Cheers,
G-Man



28 Nov 2006 12:23:20
lescor
Re: there is no best

Danzig wrote:
> G-Man wrote:
>
>>
>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>> news:XoHah.16922$p9.7602@edtnps82...
>>
>>> Jimbo wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>>>>
>>>>> I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the
>>>>> best of all time. Rubbish.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're right on this......today a horse can win 7 of his first 8
>>>> starts and right away he's one of the "all time greats"......
>>>
>>> tell me about a Forego and I will listen with comparisons of all time
>>> greats: longevity, adaptation to distances and tracks, carrying heavy
>>> imposts and still not embarrassing himself
>>
>>
>> That's why Arkle is also called "Himself".
>>
>> Cheers,
>> G-Man
>
> have no idea who ARKIE is

Simply a horse which was so far ahead of the best of his era and
anything since with a record which still seems impossible to believe.
A steeplchaser who won everything and a chase record (I think) of 22wins
from 24 races over anything from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 miles on any going.

He was so outstanding he became impossible for the official handicapper
to make sense of the weights he had to allocate in the major handicaps.
It often ended with Arkle carrying 175 lb and the rest 140. It was
seldom enough and he would beat them and often knocked lumps off the
track record as he did it. Would come out 10 to 14 days later and do it
again. I have seen many "greats" over the years but seeing Arkle race
was the most memorable of all those experiences.

It might not be easy for flat racing orientated US punters to
appreciate the high standard of the jumping game over here. Many of us
feel it is the ultimate test of the thoroughbred. Within that sphere of
high quality animals, Arkle was light years ahead of his time.
As G-Man said, he was known simply as "Himself"

I posted recently about the death of a fine old jumping champion. Desert
Orchid, a great horse of his time. On official figures Arkle would have
been asked to give that one 25lb. How outstanding can a horse get?

Any future discussion about the best race horse will have to be
reserved for second place. The top spot is taken.

LC






28 Nov 2006 16:11:11
Danzig
Top steeplechaser maybe

id, a great horse of his time. On official figures Arkle would have
> been asked to give that one 25lb. How outstanding can a horse get?
>
> Any future discussion about the best race horse will have to be
> reserved for second place. The top spot is taken.
>
> LC
>
>
Can't compare sprinters, routers with steeplechasers: a COMPLETELY
different skill.


28 Nov 2006 16:58:01
G-Man
Re: Top steeplechaser maybe


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:zcZah.345$dX4.205@clgrps13...
> id, a great horse of his time. On official figures Arkle would have
>> been asked to give that one 25lb. How outstanding can a horse get?
>>
>> Any future discussion about the best race horse will have to be reserved
>> for second place. The top spot is taken.
>>
>> LC
>>
>>
> Can't compare sprinters, routers with steeplechasers: a COMPLETELY
> different skill.

This game is about opinions and I cannot believe you don't have one,
especially as you seem to be pretty pedantic on most things to do with
horseracing. IMHO Arkle is the best racehorse of the last 45 years.

Cheers,
G-Man



28 Nov 2006 20:41:44
Danzig
Re: Top steeplechaser maybe

G-Man wrote:
>
> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:zcZah.345$dX4.205@clgrps13...
>> id, a great horse of his time. On official figures Arkle would have
>>> been asked to give that one 25lb. How outstanding can a horse get?
>>>
>>> Any future discussion about the best race horse will have to be
>>> reserved for second place. The top spot is taken.
>>>
>>> LC
>>>
>>>
>> Can't compare sprinters, routers with steeplechasers: a COMPLETELY
>> different skill.
>
> This game is about opinions and I cannot believe you don't have one,
> especially as you seem to be pretty pedantic on most things to do with
> horseracing. IMHO Arkle is the best racehorse of the last 45 years.
>
> Cheers,
> G-Man
best steeplechaser maybe but 45 years ago includes Forego, Ruffian,
Secretariat, Personal Ensign, Miesque, Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Dr.
Fager and a few others..

There is NO ONE BEST, only good ones in their divisions, surfaces, time
periods


28 Nov 2006 21:01:56
G-Man
Re: Definitely the Best of the Best


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:ca1bh.956$dX4.943@clgrps13...
> G-Man wrote:
>>
>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>> news:zcZah.345$dX4.205@clgrps13...
>>> id, a great horse of his time. On official figures Arkle would have
>>>> been asked to give that one 25lb. How outstanding can a horse get?
>>>>
>>>> Any future discussion about the best race horse will have to be
>>>> reserved for second place. The top spot is taken.
>>>>
>>>> LC
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Can't compare sprinters, routers with steeplechasers: a COMPLETELY
>>> different skill.
>>
>> This game is about opinions and I cannot believe you don't have one,
>> especially as you seem to be pretty pedantic on most things to do with
>> horseracing. IMHO Arkle is the best racehorse of the last 45 years.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> G-Man
> best steeplechaser maybe but 45 years ago includes Forego, Ruffian,
> Secretariat, Personal Ensign, Miesque, Spectacular Bid, Affirmed, Dr.
> Fager and a few others..
>
> There is NO ONE BEST, only good ones in their divisions, surfaces, time
> periods


As a comparison with Boxing, which also has quite a few divisions, I think
you will actually agree that most people say that Ali is the best boxer of
the last 45 years. They don't say the best "heavyweight" boxer.
So IMHO Arkle is the best racehorse during the same time, but it's only MO.

Cheers,
G-Man



28 Nov 2006 21:21:47
G-Man
Re: there is no best


"Jimbo" <justjim3333@yahoo.com > wrote in message
news:u8Hah.93$mB1.82@newsfe05.lga...
>
> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:2HGah.20144$uj6.9267@edtnps89...
>>I hear johnny come lately's all the time promoting some nag as the best of
>>all time. Rubbish.
>
> You're right on this......today a horse can win 7 of his first 8 starts
> and right away he's one of the "all time greats"......

So how many wins and in what number of races is it ok to say a horse is one
of the all time greats?

Cheers,
G-Man




29 Nov 2006 09:33:54
lescor
Re: Top steeplechaser maybe

Danzig wrote:
> id, a great horse of his time. On official figures Arkle would have
>
>> been asked to give that one 25lb. How outstanding can a horse get?
>>
>> Any future discussion about the best race horse will have to be
>> reserved for second place. The top spot is taken.
>>
>> LC
>>
>>
> Can't compare sprinters, routers with steeplechasers: a COMPLETELY
> different skill.

I agree to some degree. The race types do require different talents.
But if you want to get involved in the task of deciding on the "best"
there are workable and logical criteria available. Simply, which horse
was the most outstanding amongst the elite of its own elite group?

It was on this basis that I named Arkle. His three consecutive wins of
the premier chase, The Cheltenham Gold Cup, plus the other major chases
of the year, was like a flat horse winning three consecutive triple
crowns (if age permitted the attempt) plus most of the other top annual
challenges en route.

Before Arkle arrived on the scene we had a truly outstanding champion,
Mill House, a massive youngster who stayed forever and jumped for fun.
Most knowledgeable racing men considered him to be one of the finest
ever seen. The suggestion that another horse could beat him and, then
continue to do so conceding increasing lumps of weight, would have been
considered unthinkable, laughable, ridiculous. But it happened.

He won with unprecedented weight burdens and even broke track records
doing it. He never once fell, and was retired with a foot injury at the
time when he had just reached his peak, so who knows what was to come?

The question often arises amongst punters whether a particular new star
could be the "new"...( pick your past favourite name) and be named with
the greats. You will not hear this from any informed racing man
concerning Arkle. The records he set have placed him too far ahead to
make even the loosest comparison sensible. They are the 3 minute mile,
the 9 second 100 meters, the 1500 home runs in a season.

So, if we are to judge by the most outstanding thoroughbred in its field,
like most of the events Arkle took part in, it really is no race chum.

LC







29 Nov 2006 17:07:41
Danzig
Re: Top steeplechaser maybe

lescor wrote:
> Danzig wrote:
>> id, a great horse of his time. On official figures Arkle would have
>>
>>> been asked to give that one 25lb. How outstanding can a horse get?
>>>
>>> Any future discussion about the best race horse will have to be
>>> reserved for second place. The top spot is taken.
>>>
>>> LC
>>>
>>>
>> Can't compare sprinters, routers with steeplechasers: a COMPLETELY
>> different skill.
>
> I agree to some degree. The race types do require different talents.
> But if you want to get involved in the task of deciding on the "best"
> there are workable and logical criteria available. Simply, which horse
> was the most outstanding amongst the elite of its own elite group?
>
> It was on this basis that I named Arkle. His three consecutive wins of
> the premier chase, The Cheltenham Gold Cup, plus the other major chases
> of the year, was like a flat horse winning three consecutive triple
> crowns (if age permitted the attempt) plus most of the other top annual
> challenges en route.
>
> Before Arkle arrived on the scene we had a truly outstanding champion,
> Mill House, a massive youngster who stayed forever and jumped for fun.
> Most knowledgeable racing men considered him to be one of the finest
> ever seen. The suggestion that another horse could beat him and, then
> continue to do so conceding increasing lumps of weight, would have been
> considered unthinkable, laughable, ridiculous. But it happened.
>
> He won with unprecedented weight burdens and even broke track records
> doing it. He never once fell, and was retired with a foot injury at the
> time when he had just reached his peak, so who knows what was to come?
>
> The question often arises amongst punters whether a particular new star
> could be the "new"...( pick your past favourite name) and be named with
> the greats. You will not hear this from any informed racing man
> concerning Arkle. The records he set have placed him too far ahead to
> make even the loosest comparison sensible. They are the 3 minute mile,
> the 9 second 100 meters, the 1500 home runs in a season.
>
> So, if we are to judge by the most outstanding thoroughbred in its field,
> like most of the events Arkle took part in, it really is no race chum.
>
> LC
>
>
>
>
>
agree to diagaree. Steeplechaser is all he gets