28 Apr 2005 00:36:19
Danzig
Match race?

Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??


28 Apr 2005 00:37:20
Danzig
Re: Match race?

Danzig wrote:
> Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??
Silent Witness that is


28 Apr 2005 02:36:19
Re: Match race?

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:36:19 GMT, Danzig <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote:

>Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??


Yes. *No* match race.

Do we learn nothing from tragedies such as Ruffian?

There is enough risk involved in running races, why bother with that
sort of shit.

Let them be entered someplace in a race together, or let it go.

d11


28 Apr 2005 04:59:48
Kingo Gondo
Re: Match race?

Don't they excel on different surfaces?


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:7eWbe.7980$HR1.228@clgrps12...
> Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??




28 Apr 2005 07:42:48
Danzig
Re: Match tragedies...few and far between

derby11@verizon.net wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:36:19 GMT, Danzig <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??
>
>
>
> Yes. *No* match race.
>
> Do we learn nothing from tragedies such as Ruffian?
>
> There is enough risk involved in running races, why bother with that
> sort of shit.
>
> Let them be entered someplace in a race together, or let it go.
>
> d11
ONLY match race I ever recall that had a tragic ending and there have
been many. Some were a bust like Miss Muskett/Chris Everett, bit it was
the filly's comepetetiveness that was her undoing as they had Foolish
Pleasure breaking faster than he ever had.


28 Apr 2005 09:47:40
Diogenes
Re: Match race?


<derby11@verizon.net > wrote in message
news:fsi0715e2sqfk9u4r2m63ckoce940ibccb@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:36:19 GMT, Danzig <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote:
>
> >Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??
>
>
> Yes. *No* match race.
>
> Do we learn nothing from tragedies such as Ruffian?
>
> There is enough risk involved in running races, why bother with that
> sort of shit.

You have extrapolated from ONE race a general rule of cause and effect that
is totally between your ears.

Match races were run forever, with no notable trend towards breakdowns.
They've been run since (I saw one in person at Del Mar, and at Fairgrounds)
with no problem. Many races are effectively match races from the gate--two
superior horses hook up early and the overmatched competition run their own
race behind them. Tell me, are the shitty 3 or 4 horse fields (usually in
California) somehow magically transformed from a "dangerous" match race into
a "safe" regular race by one or two extra horses stepping on to the track?
How is that accomplished, by pixie dust?

Quit parroting generally accepted idiocy uncritically, and try thinking for
yourself for a change.






28 Apr 2005 10:30:50
yojimbo
Re: Match race?


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:4fWbe.7981$HR1.5385@clgrps12...
> Danzig wrote:
>> Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??
> Silent Witness that is

Ghostzapper is currently rated the No. 1 thoroughbred in the world, and has
demonstrated that he can run further than 7 furlongs, so I would pick him.
In a short race, I don''t know, but at a classic distance, I'd back him for
sure.




29 Apr 2005 19:10:55
Danzig
Re: Match race?

Kingo Gondo wrote:
> Don't they excel on different surfaces?
>
>
> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:7eWbe.7980$HR1.228@clgrps12...
>
>>Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??
>
>
>
as the Bard would say, There's the rub


29 Apr 2005 19:19:38
Danzig
Re: Match race?

yojimbo wrote:
> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
> news:4fWbe.7981$HR1.5385@clgrps12...
>
>>Danzig wrote:
>>
>>>Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??
>>
>>Silent Witness that is
>
>
> Ghostzapper is currently rated the No. 1 thoroughbred in the world, and has
> demonstrated that he can run further than 7 furlongs, so I would pick him.
> In a short race, I don''t know, but at a classic distance, I'd back him for
> sure.
>
>
The Aussie does NOT have that much gate speed and in these races that is
usually a BIG factor because once you gain POSITION, it is usually over
much akin to an Qlymic cycling contest.

Tim Yatcak


30 Apr 2005 17:11:45
Ren
Re: Match race?


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:eNvce.9823$3V3.2166@edtnps89...
> yojimbo wrote:
>> "Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net> wrote in message
>> news:4fWbe.7981$HR1.5385@clgrps12...
>>
>>>Danzig wrote:
>>>
>>>>Any opinions about Ghostzapper vs the Aussie champ??
>>>
>>>Silent Witness that is
>>
>>
>> Ghostzapper is currently rated the No. 1 thoroughbred in the world, and
>> has demonstrated that he can run further than 7 furlongs, so I would pick
>> him. In a short race, I don''t know, but at a classic distance, I'd back
>> him for sure.
> The Aussie does NOT have that much gate speed and in these races that is
> usually a BIG factor because once you gain POSITION, it is usually over
> much akin to an Qlymic cycling contest.
>

Silent Witness can go from anywhere, actually its last race it went from the
front from the worst draw.

Ren




30 Apr 2005 13:46:25
yojimbo
Re: Match race?


"Ren" <cyborgo@frontiernet.net > wrote in message
news:l%Oce.182$8g.173@news01.roc.ny...

>> The Aussie does NOT have that much gate speed and in these races that is
>> usually a BIG factor because once you gain POSITION, it is usually over
>> much akin to an Qlymic cycling contest.
>>
>
> Silent Witness can go from anywhere, actually its last race it went from
> the front from the worst draw.

I've seen a bunch of sprints from HK where it's simply one long six furlong
straight, no turns, so pole position isn't critical. Often you'll see the
horses split into two groups, one heading to the rail, the other to the
extreme outside. I'll pay more attention to Silent Witness's starts from now
on, but I haven't detected any consistent failing there. I think the horse
is definitely a champion, but again, I don't think it too worth my time
comparing SW to GZ until SW proves he can run farther than a mile. A perfect
record IMO isn't a huge deal. In Australia, champion horses regularly use
sprints to freshen up for the big stakes races, the actual results in the
sprints aren't a huge deal, they are a means to an end. Punters understand
this. The handlers use those early sprints to prep for the business end of
the calendar, they don't hide the horses for fear of a loss dampening their
record. That's why a horse like Makybe Diva will start in an occasion
sprint, with her handlers knowing full well the reality that she probably
won't win. Their aim is the bigger prizes, and she does pretty well in
those. Kinda like losing a regular season game in the NFL - ho-hum, back to
work, the real target is the Superbowl. At the end of the day, it's the SB
champs we remember. (But hey, if a horse wants to do a '72 Dolphins and run
the entire table, that would be awesome too!) As much as SW's perfect record
is remarkable, I'd be much more impressed if his handlers let him stretch
out in longer races, even if it meant losing a few. If he fails, okay, he's
a champion sprinter. But if he wins past a mile, his status is elevated, and
you can bet that international tracks will be making huge offers to attract
him. IMO a true champion -- one for the ages -- needs to prove himself in G1
stakes races at 10-12 furlongs, but that's just my opinion.




30 Apr 2005 17:48:35
Ren
Re: Match race?


"yojimbo" <thomaspbyers@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:UqWdnXra_PD1We7fRVn-ig@golden.net...
>
> "Ren" <cyborgo@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:l%Oce.182$8g.173@news01.roc.ny...
>
>>> The Aussie does NOT have that much gate speed and in these races that is
>>> usually a BIG factor because once you gain POSITION, it is usually over
>>> much akin to an Qlymic cycling contest.
>>>
>>
>> Silent Witness can go from anywhere, actually its last race it went from
>> the front from the worst draw.
>
> I've seen a bunch of sprints from HK where it's simply one long six
> furlong straight,

Straight courses can have a draw bias aswell.

Ren




30 Apr 2005 13:52:36
yojimbo
Re: Match race?


"Ren" <cyborgo@frontiernet.net > wrote in message
news:TxPce.184$8g.107@news01.roc.ny...

> Straight courses can have a draw bias aswell.

I suspect you're right. Obviously horses want to run on the best part of the
straight. But the straight racing without turns is something I'm pretty
unfamiliar with, I see it a bit in Oz, a bit in the States, and consistently
in HK, but as I say, it's not something I'm real familiar with, especially
the tactical side of those races.




30 Apr 2005 16:20:34
MMcC
Re: Match race?

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:52:36 -0400, "yojimbo"
<thomaspbyers@hotmail.com > wrote:

>
>"Ren" <cyborgo@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>news:TxPce.184$8g.107@news01.roc.ny...
>
>> Straight courses can have a draw bias aswell.
>
>I suspect you're right. Obviously horses want to run on the best part of the
>straight. But the straight racing without turns is something I'm pretty
>unfamiliar with, I see it a bit in Oz, a bit in the States,

Where in the states?
The only straight racing I know of in the US is QH racing, and that's
all under 1/4 mile.

>and consistently
>in HK, but as I say, it's not something I'm real familiar with, especially
>the tactical side of those races.

At Newmarket, on the Rowley course, anything under 1m 2f is dead
straight.




02 May 2005 07:26:42
Danzig
Re: Match race?


>
> Silent Witness can go from anywhere, actually its last race it went from the
> front from the worst draw.
>
> Ren
>
>
Gate speed over there is NOT gate speed over here. Relative to the field
in HK maybe this one is quick but I mean a FEW FEET out of the gate NOT
a furlong. ALL the imports usuallpy get beaten out of the gate when they
first arrive even ones like Dayjur

Tim Yatcak


02 May 2005 07:28:03
Danzig
Re: Match race?

Ren wrote:
> "yojimbo" <thomaspbyers@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:UqWdnXra_PD1We7fRVn-ig@golden.net...
>
>>"Ren" <cyborgo@frontiernet.net> wrote in message
>>news:l%Oce.182$8g.173@news01.roc.ny...
>>
>>
>>>>The Aussie does NOT have that much gate speed and in these races that is
>>>>usually a BIG factor because once you gain POSITION, it is usually over
>>>>much akin to an Qlymic cycling contest.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Silent Witness can go from anywhere, actually its last race it went from
>>>the front from the worst draw.
>>
>>I've seen a bunch of sprints from HK where it's simply one long six
>>furlong straight,
>
>
> Straight courses can have a draw bias aswell.
>
> Ren
>
>
how can you have a DRAW bias in a match race?


02 May 2005 10:47:15
yojimbo
Re: Match race?


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:eNvce.9823$3V3.2166@edtnps89...

> it is usually over much akin to an Qlymic cycling contest.

Which leads me to wonder ... and I conceed it's probably a dumb question ...
has there ever been a race decided on individual time trials, the way they
sometimes do in cycling?




02 May 2005 16:51:23
Ren
Re: Match race?


"Danzig" <tyatcak@telus.net > wrote in message
news:SCkde.15679$0X6.2010@edtnps90...
>
>>
>> Silent Witness can go from anywhere, actually its last race it went from
>> the front from the worst draw.
>>
>> Ren
> Gate speed over there is NOT gate speed over here. Relative to the field
> in HK maybe this one is quick but I mean a FEW FEET out of the gate NOT a
> furlong. ALL the imports usuallpy get beaten out of the gate when they
> first arrive even ones like Dayjur
>

Being quick out of the gate doesn't mean you will win a race.

Ren