23 Apr 2004 18:53:20
Partho Bhowmick
chin-ups vs pulldowns

Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.

Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
which
of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
the lats? What are the
pros and cons of each?

Regards,
PS




23 Apr 2004 12:33:52
Nikolai Michaleski
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.

N

Partho Bhowmick wrote:

> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>
> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
> which
> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
> the lats? What are the
> pros and cons of each?
>
> Regards,
> PS



23 Apr 2004 22:34:40
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
<nmichaleski@mainframe.ca > wrote:
>Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>
>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>
>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>> which
>> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
>> the lats? What are the
>> pros and cons of each?
>>
>> Regards,
>> PS
>
>Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
>think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>

I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
belt.

However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
the weight until I counterbalance the load.

At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can budge the
weight when I attempt a pull-down!

TFIF!! ;o)


24 Apr 2004 13:01:00
dundonald
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net > thoughtfully wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
><nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>
>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>>> which
>>> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
>>> the lats? What are the
>>> pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> PS
>>
>>Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
>>think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>>
>
>I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
>own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
>even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
>belt.
>
>However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
>idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
>bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
>the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>
>At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can budge the
>weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>
>TFIF!! ;o)

That is very strange.

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24 Apr 2004 13:01:29
dundonald
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

"Partho Bhowmick" <x@y.net > thoughtfully wrote:

>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>
>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>which
>of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
>the lats? What are the
>pros and cons of each?

Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.

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24 Apr 2004 11:30:36
Jeff Finlayson
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net > wrote:
> Nikolai Michaleski <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
> >>
> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
> >> which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
> >> widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
> >> Regards,
> >> PS
> >
> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
> >think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>
> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
> belt.

Agreed. I think pulldowns are harder because body positioning
is more restricted compared to pull-ups.

> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
> the weight until I counterbalance the load.

Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if that's what
you mean.

> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can budge the
> weight when I attempt a pull-down!
> TFIF!! ;o)


24 Apr 2004 17:41:17
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 11:30:36 -0500, Jeff Finlayson
<finlayson@hiwaay.not > wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote:
>> Nikolai Michaleski <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>> >>
>> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>> >> which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
>> >> widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>> >> Regards,
>> >> PS
>> >
>> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
>> >think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>>
>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
>> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
>> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
>> belt.
>
>Agreed. I think pulldowns are harder because body positioning
>is more restricted compared to pull-ups.
>
>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
>> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
>> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
>> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>
>Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if that's what
>you mean.

That's how it is supposed to work, but if I have counter-balanced
myself I should in theory be pulling down my own bodyweight exactly.

However, that notwithstanding, I still can't pull it down! Very
frustrating and another 'unknown' with Precor equipment, as not even
they can tell me what weight I am shifting, or even the weight
equivalent for each weight plate!!

HAGW!!


25 Apr 2004 01:07:02
sooky grumper
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Jeff Finlayson wrote:

>
> Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if that's what
> you mean.

Some pulldown machines use chains rather than cable, so his might
resemble gears.

--
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24 Apr 2004 18:22:01
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 01:07:02 +0800, sooky grumper
<sookygrumper@fishies_.com > wrote:

>Jeff Finlayson wrote:
>
>>
>> Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if that's what
>> you mean.
>
>Some pulldown machines use chains rather than cable, so his might
>resemble gears.

The Precor machines at my gym are all Kevlar belt driven multiple
pulley systems. No two machines are the same, and it is very
frustrating not knowing what weight is being used!!

HAGW! ;o)



24 Apr 2004 21:12:21
Bully
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs
>>> pull-ups.
>>>
>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>>> pull-downs, which
>>> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
>>> widening the lats? What are the
>>> pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> PS
>>
>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are
>> still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>>
>
> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
> belt.
>
> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>
How do you do that?

--
Bully
Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Everything else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html





24 Apr 2004 22:59:28
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net >
wrote:

>John HUDSON wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs
>>>> pull-ups.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>>>> pull-downs, which
>>>> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
>>>> widening the lats? What are the
>>>> pros and cons of each?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> PS
>>>
>>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are
>>> still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>>>
>>
>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
>> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
>> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
>> belt.
>>
>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
>> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
>> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
>> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>>
>How do you do that?

Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
there suspended going neither up nor down!!

Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
fucking idiot.

As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!

HAGW!! ;o)



24 Apr 2004 23:12:03
dundonald
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net > thoughtfully wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>wrote:
>
>>John HUDSON wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs
>>>>> pull-ups.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>>>>> pull-downs, which
>>>>> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
>>>>> widening the lats? What are the
>>>>> pros and cons of each?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> PS
>>>>
>>>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are
>>>> still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
>>> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
>>> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
>>> belt.
>>>
>>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
>>> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
>>> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
>>> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>>>
>>How do you do that?
>
>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>
>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>fucking idiot.

It's all physics.

>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>
>HAGW!! ;o)


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25 Apr 2004 00:15:26
Kenn Lynch
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:41:17 +0100, John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net >
wrote:

>Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if that's what
>>you mean.
>
>That's how it is supposed to work, but if I have counter-balanced
>myself I should in theory be pulling down my own bodyweight exactly.
>
>However, that notwithstanding, I still can't pull it down! Very
>frustrating and another 'unknown' with Precor equipment, as not even
>they can tell me what weight I am shifting, or even the weight
>equivalent for each weight plate!!
>
>HAGW!!

John
For what it's worth?

On my Precor S23 (formerly Pacific Fitness, Delmar)
The 20 plate weight stack contained 200 lbs
(+ 8 lbs for the stack "cap")

5 smaller 5 lb plates (25 lb)
10 medium 10 lb plates (100 lb)
5 large 15 lb plates (75 lb)

Precor's upgrade option consists of 5 additional 15lb
(they replace the 5lb plates to keep the total 20 plates)
with a total of 250 lbs


Last time I checked it's very close to one to one ratio at the
furthest handle.(stack to bodyweight load) but you do have to assume
the axles on the pulleys, rollers and the bushings in the weight stack
and cams add some friction and non-linearity to the load.

The Delmar, is a machine with very good counter balancing for the
lever arm and kind of unique in that the push and pull movements use
the very same linkage. But even so you can't really compare the
selectorized stack weight to its freeweight equivalent.

All in all, I think the best way is to use selectorized stack weight
values is as a relative indicator of increment. this is especially
true when you add levers and cams to the machine.

Kenn Lynch


25 Apr 2004 09:02:23
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:15:26 -0400, Kenn Lynch
<klynch212@spam_bam_comcast.net > wrote:

>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 17:41:17 +0100, John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Gearing? The weight is less with a double pulley config if that's what
>>>you mean.
>>
>>That's how it is supposed to work, but if I have counter-balanced
>>myself I should in theory be pulling down my own bodyweight exactly.
>>
>>However, that notwithstanding, I still can't pull it down! Very
>>frustrating and another 'unknown' with Precor equipment, as not even
>>they can tell me what weight I am shifting, or even the weight
>>equivalent for each weight plate!!
>>
>>HAGW!!
>
>John
>For what it's worth?
>
>On my Precor S23 (formerly Pacific Fitness, Delmar)
>The 20 plate weight stack contained 200 lbs
>(+ 8 lbs for the stack "cap")
>
> 5 smaller 5 lb plates (25 lb)
>10 medium 10 lb plates (100 lb)
> 5 large 15 lb plates (75 lb)
>
>Precor's upgrade option consists of 5 additional 15lb
>(they replace the 5lb plates to keep the total 20 plates)
>with a total of 250 lbs
>
>
>Last time I checked it's very close to one to one ratio at the
>furthest handle.(stack to bodyweight load) but you do have to assume
>the axles on the pulleys, rollers and the bushings in the weight stack
>and cams add some friction and non-linearity to the load.
>
>The Delmar, is a machine with very good counter balancing for the
>lever arm and kind of unique in that the push and pull movements use
>the very same linkage. But even so you can't really compare the
>selectorized stack weight to its freeweight equivalent.
>
>All in all, I think the best way is to use selectorized stack weight
>values is as a relative indicator of increment. this is especially
>true when you add levers and cams to the machine.
>
>Kenn Lynch

Thanks Kenn.

I have in fact been in regular communication with Precor about this
vexing problem. They have been honest enough to admit that they don't
provide their machines with accurate weight plates for fear of
litigation. They use what they describe as "graduated resistance
plates in numeric increments".

The nearest they will admit is that the plates are approximately 5 and
10 kgs, but they have no idea what the 'gearing' on the various
machines does to those estimated weights.

I have learned to live with them but long for our free-weight room to
open again!

Have a great Sunday! ;o)



25 Apr 2004 09:12:14
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 23:12:03 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam > wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>John HUDSON wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>>>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>>>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs
>>>>>> pull-ups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>>>>>> pull-downs, which
>>>>>> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
>>>>>> widening the lats? What are the
>>>>>> pros and cons of each?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> PS
>>>>>
>>>>> Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are
>>>>> still harder. I think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
>>>> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
>>>> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
>>>> belt.
>>>>
>>>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
>>>> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
>>>> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
>>>> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>>>>
>>>How do you do that?
>>
>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>
>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>>fucking idiot.
>
>It's all physics.

As opposed to physicals?!! ;o)

HAGS!!


25 Apr 2004 12:08:49
Sir Noel Plum
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns


"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net > wrote in message
news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
> wrote:
>
>
> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
> own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
> and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
> there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>
> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
> knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
> fucking idiot.
>
> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>
> HAGW!! ;o)
>

With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
you chin.

SNP.




25 Apr 2004 20:27:39
sooky grumper
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> "John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>
>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>
>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>>fucking idiot.
>>
>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>
>>HAGW!! ;o)
>>
>
>
> With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
> your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
> bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
> you chin.

Think about that just a little more please...

>
> SNP.
>
>


--
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25 Apr 2004 20:29:49
dundonald
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com > thoughtfully wrote:

>
>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>> own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>> and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>> there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>
>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>> knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>> fucking idiot.
>>
>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>
>> HAGW!! ;o)
>>
>
>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
>you chin.

So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire bodyweight with chins?
Where does the weight from forearms/hands and upper arms go to?

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25 Apr 2004 20:40:08
Proton Soup
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:29:49 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam > wrote:

>"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>>
>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>>> own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>>> and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>>> there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>
>>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>>> knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>>> fucking idiot.
>>>
>>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>
>>> HAGW!! ;o)
>>>
>>
>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
>>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
>>you chin.
>
>So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire bodyweight with chins?
>Where does the weight from forearms/hands and upper arms go to?

It just hangs there. Doesn't go anywhere. That's the point. It's a
question of how much weight you LIFT. Most of your body is being
lifted 20 inches or so, but the center of mass (COM) )of your forearms
changes very little. COM change for your upper arms may be only half
that of your torso, legs, and head.

OTOH, with the pulldown, you do have a few pounds of deadweight in
your arms pulling down on the bar. But machines also have dynamic
friction that makes them a bit different from freeweight exercises.

Not something to worry about anyway. Lots of other things get thrown
in that confound the curious, such as your handspacing may be
different on the two exercises, or the angle of your wrists is
different, or the diameter of the bar is different (making grip more
of less difficult).

Proton Soup



25 Apr 2004 17:21:18
Rambo Four Sythia
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Proton Soup < > writes:

> On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:29:49 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
> <usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:
...
>>So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire bodyweight with chins?
>>Where does the weight from forearms/hands and upper arms go to?
>
> It just hangs there. Doesn't go anywhere. That's the point. It's a
> question of how much weight you LIFT. Most of your body is being
> lifted 20 inches or so, but the center of mass (COM) )of your forearms
> changes very little. COM change for your upper arms may be only half
> that of your torso, legs, and head.

While the grip must isometrically support the entire bodyweight,
including non-moving parts, the parts that don't move significantly
aren't really being lifted. That makes sense.

I would guess that those parts can't weigh more than twenty pounds,
though, so if someone can do a pullup with 20# extra weight, I'd look
elsewhere for explanations of why a bodyweight lat pulldown is not
do-able. Like mechanics.

By that I mean I'd expect the two exercises to be significantly
different in the way the muscles are used. Kind of like the front
squat versus a high-bar squat.

...
> Not something to worry about anyway. Lots of other things get thrown
> in that confound the curious, such as your handspacing may be
> different on the two exercises, or the angle of your wrists is
> different, or the diameter of the bar is different (making grip more
> of less difficult).

Yeah, that's the kind of stuff I'm thinking of. I've also noticed
that where I put my legs makes a big difference in how pullups hit my
muscles. In a pullup, you get a lot more control over which muscles
do the work.

--
R4S


25 Apr 2004 23:29:50
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:40:08 GMT, Proton Soup < > wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 20:29:49 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
><usenet@domain.sickofspam> wrote:
>
>>"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> thoughtfully wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>>> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>>>> own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>>>> and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>>>> there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>>
>>>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>>>> knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>>>> fucking idiot.
>>>>
>>>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>>
>>>> HAGW!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>
>>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
>>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
>>>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
>>>you chin.
>>
>>So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire bodyweight with chins?
>>Where does the weight from forearms/hands and upper arms go to?
>
>It just hangs there. Doesn't go anywhere. That's the point. It's a
>question of how much weight you LIFT. Most of your body is being
>lifted 20 inches or so, but the center of mass (COM) )of your forearms
>changes very little. COM change for your upper arms may be only half
>that of your torso, legs, and head.
>
>OTOH, with the pulldown, you do have a few pounds of deadweight in
>your arms pulling down on the bar. But machines also have dynamic
>friction that makes them a bit different from freeweight exercises.
>
>Not something to worry about anyway. Lots of other things get thrown
>in that confound the curious, such as your handspacing may be
>different on the two exercises, or the angle of your wrists is
>different, or the diameter of the bar is different (making grip more
>of less difficult).

I gather from the posts that I'm not alone in experiencing this 'odd'
and irritating conundrum. I find that somehow reassuring, as it has
been puzzling me for some time!!





25 Apr 2004 22:30:30
Ron
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns


"dundonald" <usenet@domain.sickofspam > wrote in message
news:hbpk809qvehbnbhotd2m71t6omfcn72o45@4ax.com...
> "Partho Bhowmick" <x@y.net> thoughtfully wrote:
>
> >Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs
pull-ups.
> >
> >Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
> >which
> >of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for
widening
> >the lats? What are the
> >pros and cons of each?
>
> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.
>
> --
> http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com
> Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
> View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)
> http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/member_profiles.php?username=Dundonald

Made me think then as well, I can pull myself up but cant pull down my
bodywieght, the most i can do <4 reps > is 95 kilos

Ronny




26 Apr 2004 10:08:53
Bully
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
> wrote:
>
>> How do you do that?
>
> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
> own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
> and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
> there suspended going neither up nor down!!

I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight will not pull it
down, but with say 2kg less on the stack it would surely it only takes 2kg
of effort to pull the stack down?

>
> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
> knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
> fucking idiot.
>
> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>
> HAGW!! ;o)
Have a good what ?????



--
Bully
Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Everything else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html





26 Apr 2004 10:57:51
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:08:53 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net >
wrote:

>John HUDSON wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> How do you do that?
>>
>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>> own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>> and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>> there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>
>I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight will not pull it
>down, but with say 2kg less on the stack it would surely it only takes 2kg
>of effort to pull the stack down?

I stack it so that I can hang on the pull-down bar and counter-balance
the weight stack, so that it goes neither up nor down, which I assume
is my bodyweight according to the stack. In other words my bodyweight
will pull it down.

If I then sit down and attempt to pull that weight down with a lat
pull-down, I can't do it!!

>
>>
>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>> knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>> fucking idiot.
>>
>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>
>> HAGW!! ;o)
>Have a good what ?????

Week-end!!

Ugh! It's Monday!! ;o(



26 Apr 2004 11:24:25
Bully
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:08:53 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
> wrote:
>
>> John HUDSON wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How do you do that?
>>>
>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals
>>> my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing
>>> out, and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can
>>> hang there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>
>> I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight will not pull
>> it down, but with say 2kg less on the stack it would surely it only
>> takes 2kg of effort to pull the stack down?
>
> I stack it so that I can hang on the pull-down bar and counter-balance
> the weight stack, so that it goes neither up nor down, which I assume
> is my bodyweight according to the stack. In other words my bodyweight
> will pull it down.
>
> If I then sit down and attempt to pull that weight down with a lat
> pull-down, I can't do it!!

I'll try that today -- can't quite get my brain round it:)!!

>>
>>>
>>> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down
>>> seated, knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt
>>> like a fucking idiot.
>>>
>>> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>
>>> HAGW!! ;o)
>> Have a good what ?????
>
> Week-end!!
>
> Ugh! It's Monday!! ;o(

Great, more opportunities to make money:)!



--
Bully
Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Everything else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html





26 Apr 2004 14:07:36
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 11:24:25 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net >
wrote:

>John HUDSON wrote:
>> On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 10:08:53 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> John HUDSON wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
>>>> <neil.simpson@virgin.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How do you do that?
>>>>
>>>> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>>> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals
>>>> my own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing
>>>> out, and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can
>>>> hang there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>
>>> I'm confused. If you stack it so that your body weight will not pull
>>> it down, but with say 2kg less on the stack it would surely it only
>>> takes 2kg of effort to pull the stack down?
>>
>> I stack it so that I can hang on the pull-down bar and counter-balance
>> the weight stack, so that it goes neither up nor down, which I assume
>> is my bodyweight according to the stack. In other words my bodyweight
>> will pull it down.
>>
>> If I then sit down and attempt to pull that weight down with a lat
>> pull-down, I can't do it!!
>
>I'll try that today -- can't quite get my brain round it:)!!

I've just got back from my work-out where I tried a much narrower grip
(shoulder width) and found it much easier. I still can't do bodyweight
but it was much nearer.

I can't recall who said that the lat pull-down is usually done with a
wide grip, and he is quite right, as my wide-grip pull-ups are much
harder than my shoulder width pull-ups!!

So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be much more
'productive.



26 Apr 2004 13:22:08
Helgi Briem
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:07:36 +0100, John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net >
wrote:

>I've just got back from my work-out where I tried a much narrower grip
>(shoulder width) and found it much easier. I still can't do bodyweight
>but it was much nearer.
>
>I can't recall who said that the lat pull-down is usually done with a
>wide grip, and he is quite right, as my wide-grip pull-ups are much
>harder than my shoulder width pull-ups!!
>
>So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be much more
>'productive.

Well, that depends on what you want to "produce".

The wider the grip, the greater the contribution of the
lats in proportion to the biceps.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!


26 Apr 2004 14:53:22
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:22:08 +0000, Helgi Briem
<HelgiBriem_1@hotmail.com > wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 14:07:36 +0100, John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I've just got back from my work-out where I tried a much narrower grip
>>(shoulder width) and found it much easier. I still can't do bodyweight
>>but it was much nearer.
>>
>>I can't recall who said that the lat pull-down is usually done with a
>>wide grip, and he is quite right, as my wide-grip pull-ups are much
>>harder than my shoulder width pull-ups!!
>>
>>So obviously a narrower grip on the lat pull-down will be much more
>>'productive.
>
>Well, that depends on what you want to "produce".

We were rather discussing the somewhat confusing difficulty in pulling
down bodyweight vis a vis pull-ups/chins!




26 Apr 2004 16:04:35
Sir Noel Plum
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns


"sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com > wrote in message
news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > "John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> > news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> >
> >>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
> >>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
> >>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
> >>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
> >>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
> >>
> >>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
> >>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
> >>fucking idiot.
> >>
> >>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> >>
> >>HAGW!! ;o)
> >>
> >
> >
> > With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight
of
> > your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
> > bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than
when
> > you chin.
>
> Think about that just a little more please...
>
Okay.

I've thought about it a little more. Now what?

> >
> > SNP.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo




26 Apr 2004 16:09:35
Sir Noel Plum
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns


"dundonald" <usenet@domain.sickofspam > wrote in message
news:mu7o80tc18ibrkuj9bc8rqmcfife319p5n@4ax.com...
> "Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com> thoughtfully wrote:
>
> >
> >"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> >news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> >> On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
> >> overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
> >> own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
> >> and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
> >> there suspended going neither up nor down!!
> >>
> >> Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
> >> knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
> >> fucking idiot.
> >>
> >> As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> >>
> >> HAGW!! ;o)
> >>
> >
> >With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight
of
> >your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
> >bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than
when
> >you chin.
>
> So are you saying one might not be pulling his entire bodyweight with
chins?
> Where does the weight from forearms/hands and upper arms go to?
>
The grip experiences the entire bodyweight but that's as far as it goes.
Really it is exactly the same situation as squats but upside down (your
upper legs have to raise your upper body weight as well as the weight of the
bar but don't have to raise your lower legs and feet).

SNP.

> --
> http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com
> Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
> View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)
> http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com/member_profiles.php?username=Dundonald




26 Apr 2004 16:12:42
Jeff Finlayson
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

dun donald wrote:
> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>
>>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>
>>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>>which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one
>>for widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>
> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.

Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs then...



27 Apr 2004 01:52:35
sooky grumper
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
>>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>>
>>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>>>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>>>>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>>>>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>>>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>>
>>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>>>>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>>>>fucking idiot.
>>>>
>>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>>
>>>>HAGW!! ;o)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight
>
> of
>
>>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
>>>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than
>
> when
>
>>>you chin.
>>
>>Think about that just a little more please...
>>
>
> Okay.
>
> I've thought about it a little more. Now what?

Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during chinups/pullups,
they, along with the upper arms, counterbalance some of the weight
during pulldowns because as you're trying to pull your arms down,
gravity is to. And as gravity is a constant on both exercises (unless
you're in space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting onboard an
aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning pulldowns should actually
be easier.


--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo


26 Apr 2004 20:49:51
Sir Noel Plum
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns


"sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com > wrote in message
news:408d4c57$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> > news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
> >
> >>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> >>
> >>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> >>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
> >>>>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
> >>>>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
> >>>>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
> >>>>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
> >>>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
> >>>>
> >>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
> >>>>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
> >>>>fucking idiot.
> >>>>
> >>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> >>>>
> >>>>HAGW!! ;o)
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
> >>>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than
> >
> > when
> >
> >>>you chin.
> >>
> >>Think about that just a little more please...
> >>
> >
> > Okay.
> >
> > I've thought about it a little more. Now what?
>
> Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during chinups/pullups,
> they, along with the upper arms, counterbalance some of the weight
> during pulldowns because as you're trying to pull your arms down,
> gravity is to. And as gravity is a constant on both exercises (unless
> you're in space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting onboard an
> aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning pulldowns should actually
> be easier.
>
I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.

Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning) pulldowns are
easier or harder, they should be the same in terms of the amount of weight
actually lifted. How about this:

Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms weigh 40kg, his
legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is weightless (unlikely but it
uncomplicates things). For a pull-up the poster would effectively have to
lift 40 kg only, his forearms remaining stationary and only his heavy legs
being lifted. For the pulldown the legs remain stationary and his massive
forearms effectively counterbalance 40kg (half) of the weight he is trying
to shift effectively leaving 40kg to be hoisted upward. In both cases the
weight of the forearms can be deducted from the load that the poster is
experiencing.

What do you reckon?

SNP.




27 Apr 2004 03:52:11
sooky grumper
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> news:408d4c57$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
>
>>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>>
>>>"sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
>>>news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
>>>>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on the
>>>>>>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think equals my
>>>>>>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing out,
>>>>>>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can hang
>>>>>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down seated,
>>>>>>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like a
>>>>>>fucking idiot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>HAGW!! ;o)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight
>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
>>>>>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than
>>>
>>>when
>>>
>>>
>>>>>you chin.
>>>>
>>>>Think about that just a little more please...
>>>>
>>>
>>>Okay.
>>>
>>>I've thought about it a little more. Now what?
>>
>>Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during chinups/pullups,
>>they, along with the upper arms, counterbalance some of the weight
>>during pulldowns because as you're trying to pull your arms down,
>>gravity is to. And as gravity is a constant on both exercises (unless
>>you're in space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting onboard an
>>aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning pulldowns should actually
>>be easier.
>>
>
> I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.
>
> Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning) pulldowns are
> easier or harder, they should be the same in terms of the amount of weight
> actually lifted. How about this:
>
> Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms weigh 40kg, his
> legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is weightless (unlikely but it
> uncomplicates things). For a pull-up the poster would effectively have to
> lift 40 kg only, his forearms remaining stationary and only his heavy legs
> being lifted. For the pulldown the legs remain stationary and his massive
> forearms effectively counterbalance 40kg (half) of the weight he is trying
> to shift effectively leaving 40kg to be hoisted upward. In both cases the
> weight of the forearms can be deducted from the load that the poster is
> experiencing.
>
> What do you reckon?

Sounds about right :-)

>
> SNP.
>
>


--
spammage trappage: replace fishies_ with yahoo


26 Apr 2004 21:31:06
dundonald
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net > thoughtfully wrote:

<snip >

>I gather from the posts that I'm not alone in experiencing this 'odd'
>and irritating conundrum. I find that somehow reassuring, as it has
>been puzzling me for some time!!

I can chin my bodyweight comfortably, but I can pulldown more.

--
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Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)
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26 Apr 2004 21:36:34
dundonald
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not > thoughtfully wrote:

>dun donald wrote:
>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>
>>>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>>>which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one
>>>for widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>>
>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.
>
>Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs then...

I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But I see people using
it leaning back and forth. Lleaning back as they pull the weight down and
forth as they release the weight.

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com
Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)
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26 Apr 2004 23:52:59
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:31:06 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam > wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> thoughtfully wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>I gather from the posts that I'm not alone in experiencing this 'odd'
>>and irritating conundrum. I find that somehow reassuring, as it has
>>been puzzling me for some time!!
>
>I can chin my bodyweight comfortably, but I can pulldown more.

On a geared pull-down machine?



26 Apr 2004 23:54:19
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 21:36:34 +0000 (UTC), dundonald
<usenet@domain.sickofspam > wrote:

>Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>>dun donald wrote:
>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>
>>>>Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>>>>
>>>>Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>>>>which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one
>>>>for widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.
>>
>>Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs then...
>
>I don't use the pulldown machine.

That's answered my previous question; what are you using for
pull-downs?





27 Apr 2004 05:21:19
Jeff Finlayson
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Sir Noel Plum wrote:

> With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
> your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
> bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
> you chin.

The lat pulldown bar, forearms and part of upper arms serve as
counter weights on lat PDs. So the weight difference between the
2 exercises should be twice this amount if everything else were
the same.



27 Apr 2004 05:10:12
Jeff Finlayson
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

dundonald wrote:
> Jeff Finlayson wrote:
>>dundonald wrote:

>>>Chins every time.
>>>You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.
>>
>>Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs then...
>
> I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But I see people using
> it leaning back and forth. Lleaning back as they pull the weight down and
> forth as they release the weight.

OK. Aspects of both exercises could resemble swinging like a monkey
I suppose. ;)



27 Apr 2004 06:40:43
Bully
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.
>
> Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning) pulldowns
> are easier or harder, they should be the same in terms of the amount
> of weight actually lifted. How about this:
>
> Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms weigh
> 40kg, his legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is weightless
> (unlikely but it uncomplicates things). For a pull-up the poster
> would effectively have to lift 40 kg only, his forearms remaining
> stationary and only his heavy legs being lifted. For the pulldown the
> legs remain stationary and his massive forearms effectively
> counterbalance 40kg (half) of the weight he is trying to shift
> effectively leaving 40kg to be hoisted upward. In both cases the
> weight of the forearms can be deducted from the load that the poster
> is experiencing.
>
> What do you reckon?
>

You either need more drugs or less drugs; it's impossible to tell from here!


--
Bully
Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Everything else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html





27 Apr 2004 06:43:30
Bully
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

dundonald wrote:
> Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> thoughtfully wrote:
>
>> dun donald wrote:
>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs
>>>> pull-ups.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>>>> pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is
>>>> the better one
>>>> for widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>>>
>>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.
>>
>> Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs then...
>
> I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But I see people
> using it leaning back and forth. Lleaning back as they pull the
> weight down and forth as they release the weight.

That's probably because they are using it for pulley rows, not pulldowns.

--
Bully
Protein bars -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk
Everything else -- http://www.proteinbars.co.uk/tmof.html





27 Apr 2004 10:05:19
Anon
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net > wrote in message news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
> >>
> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
> >> which
> >> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
> >> the lats? What are the
> >> pros and cons of each?
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> PS
> >
> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
> >think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
> >
>
> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
> belt.
>
> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>
> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can budge the
> weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>
> TFIF!! ;o)


That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is I strap
myself in!
wrap a belt over my lap and around the bench.
I stopped using the pull down machine because the gearing is such that
an elephant could stand on the weights and a little girl could pull
the thing down (if she's strapped in). Well, that's a slight
exaggeration, but it's too easy for the average couch potato, even
with a fat guy standing on the weights.


27 Apr 2004 18:55:36
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On 27 Apr 2004 10:05:19 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk (Anon) wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>> >
>> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>> >>
>> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>> >> which
>> >> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
>> >> the lats? What are the
>> >> pros and cons of each?
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> PS
>> >
>> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
>> >think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>> >
>>
>> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
>> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
>> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
>> belt.
>>
>> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
>> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
>> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
>> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>>
>> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can budge the
>> weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>>
>> TFIF!! ;o)
>
>
>That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is I strap
>myself in!
>wrap a belt over my lap and around the bench.
>I stopped using the pull down machine because the gearing is such that
>an elephant could stand on the weights and a little girl could pull
>the thing down (if she's strapped in). Well, that's a slight
>exaggeration, but it's too easy for the average couch potato, even
>with a fat guy standing on the weights.

I suggest that we are discussing different machines.



27 Apr 2004 21:44:48
dundonald
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

"Bully" <neil.simpson@virgin.net > thoughtfully wrote:

>dundonald wrote:
>> Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not> thoughtfully wrote:
>>
>>> dun donald wrote:
>>>> Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs
>>>>> pull-ups.
>>>>>
>>>>> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for
>>>>> pull-downs, which of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is
>>>>> the better one
>>>>> for widening the lats? What are the pros and cons of each?
>>>>
>>>> Chins every time. You can swing like a monkey on pull down machine.
>>>
>>> Your pulldown machine must not have pads to hold the legs then...
>>
>> I don't use the pulldown machine. It does have pads. But I see people
>> using it leaning back and forth. Lleaning back as they pull the
>> weight down and forth as they release the weight.
>
>That's probably because they are using it for pulley rows, not pulldowns.

Inadvertently yes. They don't realise it.

--
http://www.bodybuildingtracker.com
Track your progress on-line free, no pop-ups or spam. (thanks Pet)
View my profile: (don't take the proverbial! :)
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28 Apr 2004 13:33:22
bc
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Jeff Finlayson <jfnlayson@hiwaaay.not > wrote in message news:<HwtDJG.I2p@news.boeing.com>...
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>
> > With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
> > your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
> > bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
> > you chin.
>
> The lat pulldown bar, forearms and part of upper arms serve as
> counter weights on lat PDs. So the weight difference between the
> 2 exercises should be twice this amount if everything else were
> the same.

It seems like the gang missed this response, but I just read the whole
thread and I think Jeff nailed it. There's also the very slightly
increasing weight of the cable helping you as the bar progresses down
if you want to get technical.

Another difference between pulldowns and chins is that bracing your
thighs against the pads allows you to totally tighten your lower body
and abdominal musculature against the pull, which might provide more
support for the pulling muscles of the back and arms via a more rigid
body. Of course, this only counts if your body would otherwise be
floating up without the pads, but if it's not, then why are you
jamming your legs under there anyway? Try turning around on the seat
and just sitting there to see if you can pull down the same weight.

I have used a pully machine w/o the bench or the corresponding
hold-down pads for your legs. Instead, you sit on the floor, put some
weight in your lap, and pull down from there. It does give you a
sense of the weight needed to keep you on the ground while pulling the
bar down to you. Trouble is, a lot of the crossover-style stacks
don't go high enough for this to be a useful exercise, so you need to
find a heavy enough stack to try it.

- bc


28 Apr 2004 14:23:20
Anon
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net > wrote in message news:<bj7t80ll4gsmirkgv0amr50q8v9fgltish@4ax.com>...
> On 27 Apr 2004 10:05:19 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk (Anon) wrote:
>
> >John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
> >> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
> >> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
> >> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
> >> >>
> >> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
> >> >> which
> >> >> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
> >> >> the lats? What are the
> >> >> pros and cons of each?
> >> >>
> >> >> Regards,
> >> >> PS
> >> >
> >> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
> >> >think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
> >> >
> >>
> >> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
> >> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
> >> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
> >> belt.
> >>
> >> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
> >> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
> >> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
> >> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
> >>
> >> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can budge the
> >> weight when I attempt a pull-down!
> >>
> >> TFIF!! ;o)
> >
> >
> >That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is I strap
> >myself in!
> >wrap a belt over my lap and around the bench.
> >I stopped using the pull down machine because the gearing is such that
> >an elephant could stand on the weights and a little girl could pull
> >the thing down (if she's strapped in). Well, that's a slight
> >exaggeration, but it's too easy for the average couch potato, even
> >with a fat guy standing on the weights.
>
> I suggest that we are discussing different machines.

I mean one of these
http://www.paulchekseminars.com/articles.cfm?select=10

are that guy's knees are under that thing to stop him taking off?

As you can see, i don't know much about these machines, I don't use
them(and wouldn't as it seems that there's a concensus on this
newsgroup not to use them).
Only started exercising last week after reading about different
muscles and the exercises that stimulate them, from the exrx site. At
the moment, my bed is my bench. I don't have a spotter so I keep the
intensity low enough that I don't mess up the lying tricep
extension(a.k.a. the skull crusher / nose breaker)!

Please bare the above paragraph in mind if I display my ignorance!
But I'm not ashamed, because people have made sillier mistakes in this
newsgroup!


28 Apr 2004 18:27:45
August Pamplona
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

"Sir Noel Plum" <sirnoelplum@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1083008975.26324.0@lotis.uk.clara.net...
>
> "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> news:408d4c57$1@quokka.wn.com.au...
> > Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > > "sooky grumper" <sookygrumper@fishies_.com> wrote in message
> > > news:408baeb5@quokka.wn.com.au...
> > >
> > >>Sir Noel Plum wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>"John HUDSON" <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message
> > >>>news:0bol809jg3dqigltboi966k8m8kqlgv5ss@4ax.com...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:12:21 +0100, "Bully"
<neil.simpson@virgin.net >
> > >>>>wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Well as I said Bully, it's trial and error; I hang my weight on
the
> > >>>>overhead pull-down bar at a weight level near what I think
equals my
> > >>>>own weight, and then adjust up or down, by releasing, earthing
out,
> > >>>>and putting the pin either higher or lower, until I find I can
hang
> > >>>>there suspended going neither up nor down!!
> > >>>>
> > >>>>Having got that right, I then ponder why I can't pull it down
seated,
> > >>>>knees under the padded restraint, while I strain and grunt like
a
> > >>>>fucking idiot.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>As I said earlier, pull-ups and chins - no problem!!
> > >>>>
> > >>>>HAGW!! ;o)
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire
weight
> > >
> > > of
> > >
> > >>>your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so
with your
> > >>>bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more
than
> > >
> > > when
> > >
> > >>>you chin.
> > >>
> > >>Think about that just a little more please...
> > >>
> > >
> > > Okay.
> > >
> > > I've thought about it a little more. Now what?
> >
> > Well, while the forearms and hands don't move during
chinups/pullups,
> > they, along with the upper arms, counterbalance some of the weight
> > during pulldowns because as you're trying to pull your arms down,
> > gravity is to. And as gravity is a constant on both exercises
(unless
> > you're in space, lifting on a mountain top, or lifting onboard an
> > aircraft at 48,000 ft...), by your reasoning pulldowns should
actually
> > be easier.
> >
> I take your point: I was wrong, I was talking shit.
>
> Rethinking the whole thing I'm not sure (by my reasoning) pulldowns
are
> easier or harder, they should be the same in terms of the amount of
weight
> actually lifted. How about this:
>
> Let us assume the poster weighs 80kg of which his forearms weigh 40kg,
his
> legs weigh 40kg and the rest of his body is weightless (unlikely but
it
> uncomplicates things). For a pull-up the poster would effectively have
to
> lift 40 kg only, his forearms remaining stationary and only his heavy
legs
> being lifted. For the pulldown the legs remain stationary and his
massive
> forearms effectively counterbalance 40kg (half) of the weight he is
trying
> to shift effectively leaving 40kg to be hoisted upward. In both cases
the
> weight of the forearms can be deducted from the load that the poster
is
> experiencing.
>
> What do you reckon?
>
> SNP.

I get the poster must have a hell of a grip but, if the body between
his legs and his forearms is massless, how is he pulling 40 kg.? I mean,
no way could he be that strong with zero relevant musculature!

August Pamplona
--
The waterfall in Java is not wet.
- omegazero2003 on m.f.w.

a.a. # 1811 apatriot #20 Eater of smut
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29 Apr 2004 00:38:37
John HUDSON
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

On 28 Apr 2004 14:23:20 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk (Anon) wrote:

>John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message news:<bj7t80ll4gsmirkgv0amr50q8v9fgltish@4ax.com>...
>> On 27 Apr 2004 10:05:19 -0700, q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk (Anon) wrote:
>>
>> >John HUDSON <jrh@fitnwell.net> wrote in message news:<dg2j80tcij4snjt1c729l0jhvvacvlhddj@4ax.com>...
>> >> On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 12:33:52 -0700, Nikolai Michaleski
>> >> <nmichaleski@mainframe.ca> wrote:
>> >> >Partho Bhowmick wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Thanks to all those who replied to my earler post for chin-ups vs pull-ups.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Assuming you use the same weight as your own body weight for pull-downs,
>> >> >> which
>> >> >> of the two exercises(chin-ups or pulldowns) is the better one for widening
>> >> >> the lats? What are the
>> >> >> pros and cons of each?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Regards,
>> >> >> PS
>> >> >
>> >> >Even if you do pulldowns with your own body weight, pullups are still harder. I
>> >> >think it has to do with using momentum on pull downs.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> I use the lat pull down machine and find it impossible to pull down my
>> >> own bodyweight, yet I have no problem with pull-ups, and chins are
>> >> even easier, in fact I do both with additional weight on a weight
>> >> belt.
>> >>
>> >> However, due to the gearing on the lat pull down machine, I have no
>> >> idea what weight I am actually pulling down. In order to attempt
>> >> bodyweight, I hang on the pull down bar and by trial and error, adjust
>> >> the weight until I counterbalance the load.
>> >>
>> >> At that counter-balanced weight level there is no way I can budge the
>> >> weight when I attempt a pull-down!
>> >>
>> >> TFIF!! ;o)
>> >
>> >
>> >That's interesting. What I used to do 'cos im so light, is I strap
>> >myself in!
>> >wrap a belt over my lap and around the bench.
>> >I stopped using the pull down machine because the gearing is such that
>> >an elephant could stand on the weights and a little girl could pull
>> >the thing down (if she's strapped in). Well, that's a slight
>> >exaggeration, but it's too easy for the average couch potato, even
>> >with a fat guy standing on the weights.
>>
>> I suggest that we are discussing different machines.
>
>I mean one of these
>http://www.paulchekseminars.com/articles.cfm?select=10
>
>are that guy's knees are under that thing to stop him taking off?
>
>As you can see, i don't know much about these machines, I don't use
>them(and wouldn't as it seems that there's a concensus on this
>newsgroup not to use them).
>Only started exercising last week after reading about different
>muscles and the exercises that stimulate them, from the exrx site. At
>the moment, my bed is my bench. I don't have a spotter so I keep the
>intensity low enough that I don't mess up the lying tricep
>extension(a.k.a. the skull crusher / nose breaker)!
>
>Please bare the above paragraph in mind if I display my ignorance!
>But I'm not ashamed, because people have made sillier mistakes in this
>newsgroup!

I'm not suggesting for one moment that you have done anything to be
ashamed of, or that you have been silly. On the contrary, I am
grateful to you for taking the time to research the topic and offer
your explanation.

The machine to which you have provided the link explains why you would
find your own bodyweight to easy to lift. It is to do with the blocks
and pulleys providing purchase through mechanical advantage, which is
best explained here:

http://www.harken.com/blocks/taclpwr.php

I haven't got a picture of the Lat Pull-Down machine I use on my web
site, but here is one of the Low Pulley machine, which is very
similar, sans the seat and knee pad restraint:

http://www.fitnwell.net/Low%20pulley.jpg

You will see that there is nowhere near the blocks and pulleys, and
the type of gearing probably works to a mechanical disadvantage.

This may explain the apparent discrepancies.




29 Apr 2004 08:06:50
Jeff Finlayson
Re: chin-ups vs pulldowns

Jeff Finlayson wrote:
> Sir Noel Plum wrote:
>
> > With pulls/chins I think you can effectively discount the entire weight of
> > your forearms/hands and half the weight of your upper arms so with your
> > bodyweight pulldowns you are probably pulling a stone or so more than when
> > you chin.
>
> The lat pulldown bar, forearms and part of upper arms serve as
> counter weights on lat PDs. So the weight difference between the
> 2 exercises should be twice this amount if everything else were
> the same.

I counted the bar twice there. It should be twice the forearm & part of
upper arm weight plus the lat PD bar.